See the stone set in your eyes
See the thorn twist in your side
I wait for you
Sleight of hand and twist of fate
On a bed of nails he makes me wait
And I wait without you
Through the storm we reach the shore
You give it all but I want more
I can’t live
With or without you
Thor/Loki feels. Drawn with this cover on repeat.
Loki in chains!
One of the things about Loki’s Resistance that baffles me the most - well aside from the sheer level of batshittery it takes to think Frigga is evil, or that Loki saving Thor in TDW was an act of evil, or that Thor is evil because Loki goaded him and Thor almost hit him but Loki is not evil even though he killed Thor and hundreds of innocent people because apparently Thor’s actions made in anger are evil but Loki’s are justified and good, ok pretty much everything about these people baffles me - is that they will contort themselves into cognitive knots to create a false abuse back story for Loki in the MCU that is in no way actually supported by the canon, but will then will vehemently dismiss Loki in the comics as one dimensional and just a villain, when he legitimately has an actual abuse back story that is explicitly shown in the canon and is quite powerful.
No, really, they don’t. In fact, it’s better if they’re not. When you’re writing, especially if you’re writing violence, you can fall into an easy trap: you the writer know that violence is bad, but you also know that your character is good so they cannot perform bad acts and any act they perform is good so long as it was well-intentioned. You can get into the problem of your protagonist taking actions that are as bad as the villains they’re fighting and the only justification is: they’re not a bad person or they didn’t mean it.
Well, I’m sorry. Kant is made of fairy dust and bullshit.
Violence is a nasty business and characters must shoulder the burden of the consequences. Good people do bad things for good reasons and bad people do good things for bad ones, neither is any more or less culpable than the other. They exist in the same space because, you see, it’s the action itself that matters and not the meaning behind it. A reason is not the same thing as an intention.
Intention: “I shot that guy over there but I really didn’t mean it, so I’m not culpable.”
Reason: “I shot that guy over there so that the orphans over here wouldn’t starve, I’m definitely culpable but this is why.”
One character is trying to say that because they feel a certain way that the rules don’t apply to them. The other is making a choice to do something to achieve a goal, what that goal happens to be is up to the character. It could be something noble like saving starving orphans or it could be something cold like killing a man for money. Both acts can actually have good outcomes and they can also have bad ones, but what is important to remember is that the way a character feels about it changes nothing in how others may perceive them. However, their reasons may. This doesn’t require you the author to say that what they did was okay, even if their actions were for a good cause.
I’ve seen too many novels bend over backwards to attempt to morally justify the unjustifiable for one character and then condemn the same actions by another. Characters do bad things sometimes, but even then, they’ll still be worthy of love and respect from the reader.
look at my little baby destroying people
[THAT HAIR THO]
Heat Exhaustion Symptoms
- Muscle cramps
- Pale skin
- Profuse sweating
- Sunken, dark eyes from dehydration
Do I need to remind you what he looked like during this entire scene?
He’s sweaty, his blood circulation isn’t working well due to vasoconstriction (namely, look at how pale his lips are,) and he’s got dark, sunken in eyes. Now we’ve got a point in which he trips and almost falls for some inexplicable reason. Well, let me ask you this.
How do you torture a frost giant?
Whedon wouldn’t just put in clips like this for no reason. He’s trying to show us something. The Loki we see here in this scene is not a healthy Loki, it’s a Loki who is weak and pale and probably focused on just staying conscious—a Loki who has probably been tortured by Thanos into submission and then sent out to do his dirty work for him, that way Thanos will never get the blame. Loki is just the puppet in the grand master scheme of things. Thanos is using him.
The Loki we see in Thor is radically different from the Loki we see in The Avengers. Sure, post-Thor, Loki is emotionally unstable, and maybe a little nuts, but he wasn’t a murderer. The only reason he went after Jotunheim is because he was having identity issues. Murder wasn’t something that was normal in his repertoire, yet we see him doing it frequently in The Avengers. The Loki we see at the end of Thor doesn’t want to live, let alone take over an entire realm that he had no interest in before. Something drastic must have happened between the two movies to have made Loki have such a huge character change.
It’s said that Thanos caught/rescued Loki after he fell from the Bifrost. Well, what did he do after that? Thanos is known for having telepathic powers, and since he had to have caught Loki knowing who he was and how strong he was, he likely broke into Loki’s mind to find out all of his fears and weaknesses. And once he found out all of Loki’s darkest secrets, it was easy to break him. He and the Chitauri took the Loki we saw in Thor and tortured and corrupted him until he was warped into their own personal demigod, ready to do their bidding. Why do you think Loki spouts off all these quotes about how “Freedom is life’s great lie,” and “In the end, you will always kneel”? He’s projecting.
So, when he trips? That’s the aftershocks of torture. That’s a Loki, weakened and struggling to stay upright, pushing forward through the pain because, otherwise?
“You will long for something as sweet as pain.”
He has to keep going because the alternative isn’t a question.
omgggg, noooo why is that ‘torture jotuns with heatstroke’ post still on my daaaaash
Traveling via not-the-bifrost is meant to be hella hard and risky. There is a REASON Loki was sent by this method, and why they didn’t send an entire army this way. Loki even points out that just to send Thor to earth, Odin would have had to use massive (and likely dangerous) amounts of dark energy. Even the prelude comic made a point to show that traveling like this fucked Thor up.
Thus, Loki, who traveled by one of the most risky interrealm methods possible (and has experience with risky interrealm travel in general), looked like he’d been put through the wringer when he landed on earth.
It’s little surprise that they visual and makeup direction emphasized that, yes, Loki looked like shit. He was meant to. They needed to sell it just to emphasize that you couldn’t send an entire army that way. If Loki had just waltzed through the portal, question one would be ‘why send just one person?
And since this is a movie and you can elaborate on stories visually, they would want to make Loki look like shit so they could visually explain it without spelling it out. They had to make sure that Loki looked messed up, but still had it together enough that he could hit the ground running and begin fucking shit up like a pro.
Loki didn’t need any help to be ‘twisted and warped’ - this is a dude who was pissed off enough with his own issues of self worth, jealousy and family dynamics that he didn’t care about the death of asgardian citizens just to make Thor look bad. This is a guy who killed his brother, who implied/threatened to rape Jane just to piss Thor off, and was willing to betray pretty much any loyalty to country, family or principle in order to achieve his goals. Oh yeah, and who tried to carry out the complete genocide and annihilation of an entire people and planet.
And that’s just the first movie. He didn’t need a tesseract or any torture to make him ‘corrupted and warped’ enough to carry out all that stuff. If anything, they make it pretty clear that Loki is using Thanos just as much as Thanos and the Other are using Loki - The Other clearly states that they have no interest in war - It is Loki who wants to be king. (Hmmm… where have we seen this before? Or right, back in the first movie before ‘Thanos’ ever got his hands on him). To the Other, conquering earth is just a petty desire of a petulant godling that he’s willing to spend an army on in order to get the one thing he wants - the tesseract form of the Infinity Gem.
Considering Odin had a history with the tesseract, the whole reason Thanos even knows that one of the Infinity gems is on earth is probably because Loki told him where it was, and ‘by the by, I have experience with hopping between realms. Give me what I need to get there, when I have your loot, sent your army, and once I’ve got what I want, I’ll send you the goods. We need the tesseract to send the army in anyway.’
There are REASONS that make sense for why Thanos only JUST turned his interest towards the tesseract and towards earth, and why he didn’t just send someone else to go dimension hopping a few hundred years ago. And most of those reasons tie into Loki being a shit who is willing to sell out asgardian secrets in order to get what he wants.
Traveling without the help of the bifrost does not seem to impair Loki when he gets himself, Thor and Jane from Asgard to Svartalfheim in Thor TDW. It’s known that he knows the secret ways to move through space, as stated by Thor in TDW, it was only said that it must have reguired a lot for Odin to get Thor to Midgard without the Bifrost. It is also clear that while on Midgard, Loki is being threatened by the Other, that Thanos will find him and Loki will “long for something sweet as pain” if he fails in his mission to get the Tesseract for Thanos.
As far as Loki’s attack on Jotunheim, yes it was partly due to identity issues, to erase the race that he didn’t want to be associated with as the Asgardians, including his father and brother, hated. But he was also trying to prove himself to Odin and it was his bad judgement attempt to stop the war that Thor had started, and prevent Asgardian deaths.
Pretty much all media that focused on travel in avengers made a point to say that getting to midgard was fucking HARD.
I mean, did you see what I wrote above? Because I’m just going to repeat that.
In the movie itself, Loki points out - “How much dark energy did the All-father have to muster to conjure you here?”
And in the prelude comic, you see traveling just from asgard to midgard is something that literally knocks him out. He is left in a worse state than even Loki was. His father even warns him there will be a toll.
So what as different about TDW?
For the movie plot that they wanted to tell, they needed for travel between realms to be something that was easy and low risk enough that you could take a mortal that was suffering the effects of the aether through it.
If travel had functions similar to how it had been shown in both avengers and in the prelude comic… well the aether would have survived - jane probably would not have.
You can meta away reasons for why it was ‘so easy’ - TBH I was pretty unimpressed with what they chose to go with for how Loki’s travel worked (really, you’re going to say that he’s the ONLY PERSON from a race of people who live for LIFETIMES that has managed to figure out that trick?) Considering the whole METAPHYSICS of what was going on in TDW was ‘the realms are in alignment, and there are easy to travel through holes between realms spontaneously occurring’ was part of the conceit that the plot hinged on, you can make an argument that because the realms were in alignment, travel between realms was easier than usual. Travel during the convergence might have been easier than travel normally would be. The writers needed for non-bifrost travel to be easier than it was depicted to be in the avengers, and pretending that this was the reason allows both plots to the satisfied
Also, its worth pointing out that Loki doesn’t need ‘HEATSTROKE’ to show all the same symptoms of pale and sweaty stress. He looks like shit just when he mentally speaks to the Other. Yes there was pain involved, but there was not ‘torturing a jotun with heat’ involved. What is consistent with both scenarios though is the idea of ‘transport.’ Just mentally transporting himself to talk to the other is not a picnic. (or are you going to meta away with the argument that just the dude’s touch can give Loki heatstroke)
And as for your other points….
Yeah, of course Thanos was threatening loki. Thanos was basically a loan shark - ‘give me my infinity gem or I’ll break your kneecaps. You better not welch on a deal.’ Loki threatened him right back too ‘hey, well you better deliver your end of the bargian. Your Army better be the real deal.’
Also, ‘proving yourself’ doesn’t excuse genocide. The whole point of Thor’s character vs. Loki’s is that Thor learns when he’s confronted with things. In Loki’s case, you can keep confronting him with things, and Loki just stubbornly doubles down and digs in deeper. The boy has done this for three movies straight, I think that kinda needs to count as a character trait now.
(Also, I’m going to repeat again another point you completely ignored earlier: Loki is willing to considering asgardian lives pretty cheap when he snuck those Jotnar into the weapons room. I mean, when the hell has he shown any actual, genuine regard for asgardian’s well being or lives (that he was not related to. Frigga doesn’t count, and Thor is pretty iffy). Not a single time where it did not benefit himself. He committed treason when he brought those jotnar in, and he was willing to risk war even the threat of war just to make Thor look bad. Thor wasn’t wrong. Having the jotnar get that far WAS something you could have gone to war for. Just not necessarily the sort of thing a cooler head like Odin would move for.)
[Real talk I just don’t get why people continually try to fansplain away the stuff Loki does by seeking out reasons for him to be tortured, etc. I can’t anymore.]
|So, I'm confused. (Legit, this isn't a personal attack.) You love Loki, but you aren't an apologist? So you basically love him BECAUSE he's a murdering shithead, or IN SPITE of it?|
[Yes thank you.]
No. Mischief is a small thing, a toy I’ve well used and discarded. This isn’t mischief. This is mayhem. Just watch.
I did a stream and all I did was Thor and Thor/Loki things help
You know what baffles me most about fandom sometimes? The idea that Loki’s punishment of being sentenced to life in prison (as if you expect me to seriously believe they wouldn’t have let him back out, as soon as he calmed the fuck down and showed some remorse for all the people he hurt) is so terrible and so unfair and that nobody has ever had such a terrible thing happen to them before.
And I wonder, eh, what movie were you watching? Because in the movie I watched, Thor literally had his godhood taken away from him, was cast out of his home, and tossed into a realm that he had no cultural context for and no support system in place and not even a way to feed himself or clothe himself or a bed to sleep in. He was given a death sentence, because he was meant to live about another four thousand years, but instead was given, if he’d stayed mortal, maybe another 70 years.
Literally, his entire being was taken from him, his entire sense of self and home and purpose was ripped away from him. He was changed on a fundamental level and tossed into a world he didn’t understand and can you IMAGINE how terrifying that must have been? It wasn’t a fucking picnic. He says it himself, for the first time in his life, he has no idea what to do. He has no idea what his purpose is. He’s a god made mortal, how do you even begin to deal with something like that?
But the thing about Thor is that he gets back up and dusts himself off and looks around and doesn’t let this destroy him or who he is at his very foundations. He makes new friends, because he’s a friendly and likable person. He makes friends who help him out because Thor treats them with respect and is honest and genuine and direct with them.
He adjusts to this new life because he is a good person at heart, he learns the lessons of the situation and realizes his actions got them into these circumstances. He grew the fuck up, out of really mind-numbingly terrifying circumstances. That takes some serious emotional resilience and sense of self, which Thor definitely has, but that doesn’t mean it was any less easy.
Loki may have been lied to and that sucked, I’m not taking away from the massive implosion his sense of self suffered. But let’s not ignore the fact that Thor had a similar situation dropped on him and he fucking handled it.
I don’t disagree with you, BUT this bumps into my inherent problem with Thor, the movie, and that’s that the Earth stuff was played for such broad laughs. It’s hard, as a viewer, to get worked up about Thor’s punishment (which, as you note, is philosophically cruel and unusual) when I’m expected to laugh at Jane running into him with the van and Darcy tasering him and the coffee mugs being thrown to the ground and Pop-Tarts and on and on and on.
I want ALL OF THOR and ALL OF THOR TDW to be rewritten by a really amazing fic author, *with* the appropriate level of angst and pathos. The Donald Blake story is awesome, but not when it’s played as a joke.
For whatever reason—be it the character, the actor, the writers, the scene direction—Loki’s material really doesn’t get played for laughs. And so, at the end, his story *does* come off as darker and more painful and more permanent. Also, we as the viewer, in Thor, knew Odin was giving Thor the chance to redeem himself, whereas we as the viewer don’t know for sure he is giving Loki the same thing. (We can guess, but we DON’T KNOW.)
You know I LOVE THOR—I really do. But my love for Thor is almost in spite of the material we’re shown on the screen, whereas my love for Loki is entirely due to what we’re shown on screen, if that makes sense.
I find myself in a really weird position right now, because I’m actually not all that fond of most of the Earth stuff in the first movie, I felt like it was the least interesting part of the movie, but I don’t think that it’s because there’s a problem with not showing Thor’s struggle. I think it’s there if you’re looking for it, but that Thor is not the kind of character who implodes over these things.
For all his arrogance and recklessness before, we can see that Thor has always been incredibly emotionally solid. We do see that it affects him, we do see that he’s suffered on Midgard, when he desperately wants to come home, that the brave and mighty Thor has been brought low by that moment where he crumbles over Mjolnir and the heartbreaking tone of his voice when he asks Loki if he can come home. When he stares up at the Destroyer and is desperate to stop it and how awful it is that he can’t do anything but offer up his death in hopes that it’ll be enough to stop this.
But it’s not really in Thor’s nature to just give up or to implode over these things, you know? He embraces life and adjusts and doesn’t lose sight of himself, which are all the reasons why I love him as a character. Sure, he questions his purpose in life now, which direction to go in, but he still laughs and loves and lives.
I think it comes across as being played for laughs because Thor is a determinedly positive character here. Which, I do agree that it becomes easier to overlook the level of awful punishment that his being made mortal is, it makes it easier to overlook than Loki’s dramatic spiral of out control, but… I think that makes sense, too? Because the point is that they both faced similar situations and how they handled it was vastly different, so the tone for each is going to feel very different.
We get it in TDW as well—we see that he still goes out to the taverns with his friends, but we also see that he’s carrying a heavier burden. Yeah, the scene on Vanaheim is played for laughs, but does anyone really think that Thor’s uncaring or that he’s not walking around with a heavy-heart? It’s just not in his nature to have as much of a downer story as Loki, because Thor’s all about getting back up and embracing life again, you know? :)
You know what baffles me most about fandom sometimes? The idea that Loki’s punishment of being sentenced to life in prison (as if you expect me to seriously believe they wouldn’t have let him back out, as soon as he calmed the fuck down and showed some remorse for all the people…
Loki was kept in comfortable quarters, he had books, he was decently clothed, and I’m assuming he received decent meals as well. He was hardly chained to the wall of a small, damp, dank cell and left to rot with only the occasional small chunk of moldy bread and mouthful of stale water brought to him if someone remembered he was there. Life in prison is light for what he did. How many people wanted to take Casey Anthony out behind the courthouse and shoot her for killing her daughter, Kaylee? How many people wanted to inflict horrible tortures on Saddam Hussein before killing him slowly and painfully? Loki did far worse than both Casey Anthony and Saddam Hussein, and life in prison is too harsh for him? Please! He should be damn thankful Odin was so incredibly merciful—but, wait, I forgot. Loki is, like, totally hawt and sexay, and Everyone knows that, like, if you’re hawt and sexay you’re not, like, actually, really bad and you didn’t really truly mean it, you’re just, like, actually really hurt and upset and misunderstood. If Odin and Thor and everyone had just, like, taken the time to understand Loki, instead of being all, like, mad and stuff because he did bad things, they’d know he didn’t, like, actually really mean to be bad. [/tongue-in-cheek]
|stop mixing mcu loki with 1d comic loki. mcu loki is nobler than thor would ever be. he and his douchebag friends betrayed loki for years and now he's punished even though they committed treason twice. the only good comic loki was trails of loki. that's our loki, full of pain caused by the cold-blooded asir. read it to see what a bully thor really is.|